MX-5 Miata Forum > All Miatas > Pricing and Dealer Discussion > Things to Never Say to a Dealer
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T-Hawk
10th November 2007, 13:10
thedriving
11th November 2007, 01:53
I am an insider. I sold cars for 5 years. I got out of the buisness and went into banking for 5 years, then the housing market took a turn and the area of banking I specialized in was no fun anymore...
SO
do you guys want my take on this piece? I can tell you right now some of it is total garbage and some of it is acurate.
I don't want to spend a couple of hours parsing it out if nobody cares though...
let me know.
jambo101
11th November 2007, 07:23
Lotta people buying a lot of cars from dealers on this forum so any help from insiders is always appreciated,any quick tips thedriving
Quick tip from my experience is Always get a used car that you are buying inspected by an independent mechanic.
Gene-M
11th November 2007, 09:23
In reading the part about focusing on monthly payments, I couldn't help but agree. I had a friend who always viewed car purchases this way, and he couldn't have gotten a bigger screwing than he did. He wouldn't listen to reason when I told him not to do it, and three years later he found himself in an upside down loan paying 28% interest on a worthless Kia.
needamiata
11th November 2007, 10:01
In reading the part about focusing on monthly payments, I couldn't help but agree. I had a friend who always viewed car purchases this way, and he couldn't have gotten a bigger screwing than he did. He wouldn't listen to reason when I told him not to do it, and three years later he found himself in an upside down loan paying 28% interest on a worthless Kia.
No offense, Gene, but intelligent people with spotless credit just absolutely do not end up in that situation. This is the kinda thing we always hear about. The reality probably is, his own bank wouldn't lend him the money to buy what he wanted, and the folks at the Kia dealer found someone who bought him. Not everyone gets screwed...some folks screw themselves by screwing up their own credit, which is going to limit their choices at what they can buy.
LWW
11th November 2007, 10:55
I think Gene is agreeing with you needamiata.
People screw themselves continually and almost never tell the story placing the blame where it lies.
LWW
Gene-M
11th November 2007, 11:33
No offense, Gene, but intelligent people with spotless credit just absolutely do not end up in that situation. This is the kinda thing we always hear about. The reality probably is, his own bank wouldn't lend him the money to buy what he wanted, and the folks at the Kia dealer found someone who bought him. Not everyone gets screwed...some folks screw themselves by screwing up their own credit, which is going to limit their choices at what they can buy.
Where in my post did I imply that my friend was intelligent, or that he had good credit? :confused:
:D :D :D
needamiata
11th November 2007, 12:11
Where in my post did I imply that my friend was intelligent, or that he had good credit? :confused:
:D :D :D
You didn't....which lead your post to sound like your friend was taken advantage of, when the reality is, he did it to himself. If someone is paying 28% interest on a loan, its because they put themselves in that situation. Sometimes there are circ*mstances beyond their control, but instead of facing credit issues and contacting their creditors to work with them, they ignore phone calls, and make no effort to repay, hence being a poor credit risk, hence 28%, hence driving a Kia. I spent alot of years in finance, and have seen the same thing over and over. The best advice in car shopping is shop around, period. If you go to 3 or 4 different places and all the numbers are similar, buy from the one you like best. If you go to 3 or 4 different and one is substantially less, buy from him. Pretty basic. You are not going to outsmart a dealer. Most will sell more cars in 2 days than you will buy in a lifetime.
BGW17
11th November 2007, 13:30
And what is there about this debate that denies that focusing on monthly payment is trobulsome?
GeeB :dunno:
Bdecked
11th November 2007, 14:39
Everyone has a different formula for buying a car...some good some bad...but I have found that the lowest price is not necessarily the best deal. I would rather, and have, paid a couple hundred dollars more to do business with a dealer who has a good reputation. With the complexities of todays cars and all the things that can and do go wrong during the warranty period it is likely that you will be back to the dealer sooner or later, even if you don't get regular service done there.
As an example, on a MB that I owned the car didn't feel right and was taken to the dealer with 58,000 miles, warranty stopped at 50,000. Dealer called and said the transmission was going. Before I could say a word they said MB had been called, repair approved at factory expense and as they knew I was leaving for vacation in two days they did the following. Located a transmission in PA. I'm in NY. Sent a person to pick it up, removed the old tranny and would have the car ready the next day by 5PM.
So the moral of the story, shop around, know what various dealers are asking but try to check out the dealer as well. Spending a little more at the right place may be the best investment you make.
needamiata
11th November 2007, 15:08
Bdecked, your post brings a whole new light to this thread. The easiest way to buy a car is to build a relationship with a reputable dealer. Not only will your experience be better, but you will actually enjoy the buying experience.
needamiata
11th November 2007, 15:14
And what is there about this debate that denies that focusing on monthly payment is trobulsome?
GeeB :dunno:
I would think most 'educated' buyers should know what their budget is before they leave the house. If you know that $20,000 for 5 years will give you an approximate payment of $400/month, you have part of the issue done. I always got a kick out of people who were looking at $30,000 trucks, and with no money down wanted a $200/ month payment.
For most of us, whether its a house or car, we need to stay within an allotted budget. I know before I have bought homes, I sit down with a mortgage person to see where I need to be price wise. Its a helluva lot easier to shop within my means than to look at homes that are $500/mo more than I can afford.
Bdecked
11th November 2007, 15:36
Bdecked, your post brings a whole new light to this thread. The easiest way to buy a car is to build a relationship with a reputable dealer. Not only will your experience be better, but you will actually enjoy the buying experience.
!!Amen!!
CSC10000
11th November 2007, 19:05
Always have a APR book at your disposal when buying a car. Know your credit rating.
Don
11th November 2007, 22:25
Always have a APR book at your disposal when buying a car. Know your credit rating.Better yet, check with your personal bank or credit union and determine how much car you can afford - Then when the dealer offers you a significantly more expensive car with 'upside down' financing, you'll know that you're actually over your limit and you should look the other way
Only when the dealership can offer you 'better' financing than your personal banker should you even consider doing business with them - Better as in lower notes, fewer notes for the same car financed than your local bank offered you when you checked with them before you set foot in any dealer's showroom
Don
HDfan
11th November 2007, 22:56
SO
do you guys want my take on this piece? I can tell you right now some of it is total garbage and some of it is acurate.
I don't want to spend a couple of hours parsing it out if nobody cares though...
let me know.[/QUOTE]
If you've got some tips to help save hard earned bucks I'd sure like to hear them.
Thanks
FordFiesta
12th November 2007, 02:30
Our best tip:
Buy used cars (Miatas) and avoid dealers altogether (except for the parts dept., of course!)
thedriving
12th November 2007, 03:35
let me take it one by one
1. don't say you are ready to buy it's a sign of weakness.
WRONG.
It will make the salesman take you seriously. You will be able to drive as many cars as you need to, the saleperson will be patient with you, answer as many questions as you can come up with and in the end they will be extremely solicitious to you because they know it will be worth it because they know you are buying a car and not wasting their time.
2."I can afford this much per month."
ok. you definitly do not want to tell me what payment you want.
I will find a car that I can sell you that will earn me a 3 or 4 pounder and still get you the payment you want.
You should know that with average credit you will expect to pay $20 per month per $1,000
so...generally speaking a $20k car costs $400 per month
3. Don't say I have a trade-in.
Of course you have a trade-in. Don't lie about it. Not telling the salesperson you have a trade-in only unnecesarrily complicates things.
Lets just say that there is only so much money to move either way.
You can get a discount on the car you are buying or more from your trade but either way it's the same amount of money total. So lying about if you have a trade or not is useless. It gives me the right to lie to you. You started it. ;)
4.Car dealers make a significant chunk of added profit when they sell you financing.
First. Significant? No. Maybe A point or two. And not always. I promise you, if your interest rate is 5% the dealership is not buying a contract at 1 percent and then selling it to you for 4 points higher. They are getting a contract for 5% and signing you up.
Second, the salesman does not care how you are paying. They care about the sale. But if they can tell you are lying to them? Then they will treat you like a liar. And salesmen can tell. They get lied to as much as cops do and they can spot a lie easily.
Be honest for the most part.
5."I'm not sure which model do you think I need?"
First, I have never been asked this. That's just stupid. :bang:
Second, if you are not totally sure what product you want why not ask an expert? Tell them what you want and then have them recommend a car and tell you why it's right for you.
As an example, I sell Subies. People come in all the time and know they want a Subaru just not which one. I ask they how they intend to use the car, whats important to them in a car, etc. and then I make a recomendation. I make the same amount of money either way.
6."Oh, I've wanted one of these all my life."
Great. We like seeing someone get excited about their new car. We can't make you buy the car so if the deal isn't good it doesn't matter if it's your "dream car " or not.
Salespeople are ultimatley PEOPLE. We want to sell you your dream car. Share the fun with us. We will actually go out of our way to help you get your dream car. If I think you couldn't care less about the car why would I make a big production of trying to help you get it?
7."I'll take whatever the popular options are."
:bang: Again, stupid. I have never had someone say this. Not even worth discussing. Just get the features that are important to you.
8."What's the lowest price you can give me?"
This is a stupid question. Why would we sell you the car at the lowest possible price just because you ask? Seriously. We call this a "rock bottom buyer" and they are never respected.
Do your research, find out what invoice is and offer to buy the car at $100 over invoice, minus any rebates. 99% of the time your offer will be accepted. See how easy that was?
I bought a 2008 Camry for my ex the week they came out, when the car had already been called car of the year and all that buisness, for $100 over. Just have an idea what the car is really worth and then offer that. If you just ask for their best price it will never be the best price.
9."Sure, I'll look at the numbers with you."
"Perhaps quite early in your visit, the salesperson will most likely make an offer to "just go look at the numbers." Dealers do this when they sense you're undecided, but they want to be in the position of control. Getting you in the office makes it harder for you to back out. Wait until you can call the shots of what you want at what price."
again, nonsense. Salespeople do this when they sense you might want to buy the car. How does me telling you how much I can sell you the car for suddenly put me in a position of control if you aren't even sure if you want the car?
If you are interested in the car and want to know how much it will cost you, how else will you know unless you look at the numbers? If you don't like the car don't go inside. Say "I don't like this car what else do you have?"
It is no harder to walk out if you have only driven the car than if you have worked up a payment.
10."I think you can do a lot better than that."
"Never scold or accuse the salespeople. Be polite. Compliment them, and show respect. You'll never get the best price if you talk down to them. At least for the moment, you want them to be your friends. Let the scene play out, but leave when the deal's not good enough by quietly suggesting that the competition across town might be more willing to work with you."
This is good advice for the most part. I don't know a single sucessful salesperson who is stupid, so treating them as if they are stupid won't work. If you are friendly and polite and respectful I will treat you in kind. If you are rude or condescending I will do my best to take as much money out of your pocket as possible...and you know what? I have a college degree, I have been in sales for more than a decade and I am good at this.
I sell more than 150 cars in a year, how many do you buy in a year? So if you piss me off? What are the odds that I will figure out a way to make some money off you?
But,
If you make a friend of me, how hard do you think I will work to get you a good deal?
Oh and mentioning the competitoin across town?
Come on. I know them better than you do. Some of them are probably my friends. I know what they are going tosay or do better than you do, so don't insult me by bringing them into this. If you have an offer on paper from them, let me see it, I'll beat it.
I hope some of this helps.
Oh, and it's too late for spell check, I'm tired. LOL
jambo101
12th November 2007, 06:13
Thanks thedriving that info is going to be very helpful in the near future when i get to buy the wife a new car..
LWW
12th November 2007, 07:37
Thanks thedriving that info is going to be very helpful in the near future when i get to buy the wife a new car..
And his advice is far more accurate than most of the posts by people who "KNOW" how the biz really works.
LWW
needamiata
12th November 2007, 08:16
And his advice is far more accurate than most of the posts by people who "KNOW" how the biz really works.
LWW
Couldn't have written it better myself. Don't forget salespeople are human, and, most make $100 - $200 per new car sold, not nearly enough to put up with an 'expert'
HDfan
12th November 2007, 08:29
Thedriving
Thank you for taking the time to share that. Much obliged.
justin.b
12th November 2007, 08:49
I disagree on the trade-in thing.
I will not talk about my trade in until we are settled negotiating the price of the car. If you tell the salesman about the trade, he uses it to muddy the water. Between talking about monthly payments and trade-ins you'll have a hard time getting him to give you the one number you want - the price of the car.
I negotiate the price first, then talk about my trade. What they offer doesn't necessarilly change if I buy the car, it changes whether I trade it or sell it myself. Since they are two entirely different issues, I prefer to keep them separate. I'm not lying to the salesman since I have no definite intention of trading the car when I go in.
-Justin
JDeane
12th November 2007, 09:06
l
3. Don't say I have a trade-in.
Of course you have a trade-in. Don't lie about it. Not telling the salesperson you have a trade-in only unnecesarrily complicates things.
Lets just say that there is only so much money to move either way.
You can get a discount on the car you are buying or more from your trade but either way it's the same amount of money total. So lying about if you have a trade or not is useless. It gives me the right to lie to you. You started it. ;)
This doesnt work. To show you lets break it down:
1: You say No Trade and finally get the dealer down to his lowest possible price on the New car.
2: Now you bring up the trade in
3: Salesman takes the car to the Used car manager to get appraisal
4: Used car Manager says $5000 for example
5: Back to the New car manager with Trade appraisal of $5000
6: Hmmm, looks like this is the last chance we have to make any money off this guy. They offer $4000. You see you didnt help yourself, you forced them to try one more time to make money, so back and forth you go again and I'll bet you never get the $5000 for your trade.
If you do the trade up front then they will show you the $5000 or more. then you go ahead and get down to the same lowest new car price as before like above post. Its very hard to reduce a trade in value after they show it to you.
Personally I loved it when people did this as it always gave me a last chance to hide some money. Hiding the trade In is the worse thing to do IMHO.
tom4416
12th November 2007, 09:33
Everyone has a different formula for buying a car...some good some bad...but I have found that the lowest price is not necessarily the best deal. I would rather, and have, paid a couple hundred dollars more to do business with a dealer who has a good reputation. With the complexities of todays cars and all the things that can and do go wrong during the warranty period it is likely that you will be back to the dealer sooner or later, even if you don't get regular service done there.
Couldn't agree more. I've always paid probably $300-$400 more for my Honda's then I could have but the dealership where we buy provides incredible service, loaner cars for even simple things, sends me 20% off coupons for parts that are already discount below retail. My wife's been driving Accords for fifteen years now and we developed a relationship with the dealership that works for both sides, get treated with respect, none of the BS some people associate with the purchase and a reasonable price.
RADOne
12th November 2007, 10:01
6: Hmmm, looks like this is the last chance we have to make any money off this guy. They offer $4000. You see you didnt help yourself, you forced them to try one more time to make money, so back and forth you go again and I'll bet you never get the $5000 for your trade.
If you do the trade up front then they will show you the $5000 or more. then you go ahead and get down to the same lowest new car price as before like above post. Its very hard to reduce a trade in value after they show it to you.
Personally I loved it when people did this as it always gave me a last chance to hide some money. Hiding the trade In is the worse thing to do IMHO.
There's nothing wrong with doing it this way. What it does do is show you what your trade in is worth to them. It sould also make one realize how much more they could get for the trade-in selling it themselves. That's where the real savings comes in.
Unless you do your homework beforehand on what your used car is worth on the market and what the new car's are going for you don't have a prayer of getting a good deal.
jambo101
12th November 2007, 10:39
thedriving You must get irritated with people who come in to buy a car and think they know everything when in fact they only buy one car every five years or more and heres you selling many cars per week.
I like the idea of being honest and upfront with the salesman and in return he tries to get you the best deal possible with out trying to over inflate his profit..
justin.b
12th November 2007, 21:15
thedriving You must get irritated with people who come in to buy a car and think they know everything when in fact they only buy one car every five years or more and heres you selling many cars per week.
I like the idea of being honest and upfront with the salesman and in return he tries to get you the best deal possible with out trying to over inflate his profit..
Good luck with that. The last time I went to a dealer, I was looking at a used NB. I didn't want it. Not the right color, not the right trim level. Previous owner was a smoker. Brakes were shot, suspension was mush, clear coat was peeling off, leaking oil around the valve cover...
That said, it was local. I legitimately had no trade, and no intentions of springing one on him. He said $11,900 (99, ~95k). I said they were for sale all over the place for $8500 in better condition at slightly less mileage and with higher trim levels. he finally came back at $10,500 - saying that was what they were into the car for as a trade. I thanked him and went on my way.
The salesman called me 2 weeks later as I was driving my new NB home from CA, offering me the car for $8000. Somehow I think they were still making money at that price.
There's a reason people tend not to be up front with car salesmen... they're entirely full of shyte more often than not. i wish there were a way to buy new cars private party.
-Justin
jambo101
12th November 2007, 21:44
Being upfront with the salesman means you have to have done your homework and be well informed on the general price of the new car and cost of options so you know that everything is in the ballpark.
I have only bought a used car from a dealer once and it wasnt a pleasant experience as the dealer did not divulge the fact that the car had previously been totalled,by 20,000miles the car was totally falling to pieces,only a threatened law suit got my money back.But i could have saved myself the hassle and had an independent mechanical inspection before purchase.
needamiata
12th November 2007, 23:05
There's a reason people tend not to be up front with car salesmen... they're entirely full of shyte more often than not. i wish there were a way to buy new cars private party.
-Justin
Um, yeah....cuz private party sales are always upfront when selling a car to someone with absolutely ZERO recourse. Salesmen are usually no more full of anything than the customer trying to do the same to them. Notice how the people who have built relationships with quality dealers are happy? Its simple. Believe me, if you treat us like dirt, we will either try to make a little extra for putting up with you, or lowball you to get you out. Typically, the hardest nosed customers also give the salesman/dealer a poor report card. Yes, those stupid surveys you get is usually tied to some of the salesmans pay, and affects the vehicle allotment to the dealer.
Also, what is the difference about the NB if you didn't want it? Maybe he was testing you to see if you had a pulse or not. I'm not sure why you got so involved in pricing if you weren't truly interested in the car.
thedriving
13th November 2007, 02:21
There are some dealers / sales people that are sheisty. When you sense that? don't deal with them.
Find the dealer near you with the best reputation. I work for a dealer that always gets voted number one dealer in the city by the local and independant newspaper. Look for that kind of dealer. Try to avoid big corporate operations; opt for a family owned place instead.
The antidote for a crappy dealer, at least on a new car? The old adage, "knowledge is power"
If you know what a fair price for the car you are buying is? if you know what your credit is like? Then you can assure you are going to get a fair deal whether they lie to you or not.
I'll give you a perfect example.
When I was buying a Camry for my ex we negotiated the price of the car down to $100 over invoice. They had only had the car for a week so I knew they were still getting full hold back and flooring. We were getting a good deal and they were still making a little money.
But here's the thing, the woman selling us the car made a point of trying to show us what a great deal we were getting by telling us that she only made $20,000 the year before. And clearly she doesn't make a lot of money off her customers if she only made $20k last year, right?
That was a bald face lie. Completely unnecessary. We still bought the car but I would never send her a referral because I know she's a liar.
In case you doubt that she was lying? An average sales person makes between $200 and $300 per car. ( a GOOD salesman has a much higher average) This woman sold 4 cars the day we were there. She sold 15 that month.
I asked her if she worked part time (that might explain $20 if she only works 6 months a year) no she's full time.
The average dealer pays $100 for a mini and 25% of the gross, if there is any. If you sell more than 10 cars there is a bonus. Then it varies after that, but 15 cars gets you at least a couple of bonuses. And that's not to mention if the manufacturer pays any bonuses. Most manufacturers do. For example, with Subaru the smallest bonus they pay you is $100 per car. (she sold 15 toyotas in a month...if those were Subies she would have gotten between $2,500 and $3,000just in Subaru money)
So I would say conservatively, at the very MINIMUM she made $2,500....but realistically? Selling 15 cars she made between $5 and $8 grand.
So does $20k yearly make any sense? Hell no. She was a stone liar.
But you know what? I still bought the car because I was educated enough to know that we were buying the car at a good price. She lied her butt off...did it make me mad as a hornet? Oh yeah. But so what? All that matters is that we got a good deal.
thedriving
13th November 2007, 02:31
thedriving You must get irritated with people who come in to buy a car and think they know everything when in fact they only buy one car every five years or more and heres you selling many cars per week.
I like the idea of being honest and upfront with the salesman and in return he tries to get you the best deal possible with out trying to over inflate his profit..
It can drive you up the wall. When I bought that Camry they never knew I had sold cars. I was in banking at the time, that's all they knew. You just hate to hear, " I was in the car buisness" and then they turn around that clearly shows they are clueless.
It is just the worst when some clown comes in spouting nonsense and says things like " I've bought a lot of cars in my time"
Oh, really? Have you bought 700-800 cars? because I have sold about that many...
(man that's a lot ...now that I see it on the screen..150 or so a year for 5+ years...)
anyway yeah, be educated, but don't be a know it all...
thedriving
13th November 2007, 02:43
[QUOTE=needamiata] Notice how the people who have built relationships with quality dealers are happy? Its simple. Believe me, if you treat us like dirt, we will either try to make a little extra for putting up with you, or lowball you to get you out. Typically, the hardest nosed customers also give the salesman/dealer a poor report card. Yes, those stupid surveys you get is usually tied to some of the salesmans pay, and affects the vehicle allotment to the dealer.
QUOTE]
yep. If I don't like you ( and I like most people , I'm weird that way) I will make it a point of making some money off you. And the people who work the dealer to death and are complete a-holes? they ding you on the survey, which does cost you money.
With Subaru, if you are over 96% you get an extra $25 per car. (that's would have been an extra $200 for me last month...I just came back to car sales so I'm not eligible until next quarter.) If you go below a certain percentage for the quarter you get zero.
I work with a guy who got one survey from a customer that didn't even buy the car. They got the survey by mistake because we couldn't get them financed (their bad credit killed the deal, not us)
and they completely crushed him in the survey and he got no $$ for three months from subaru. That probably a couple grand at least..
But if you find a good salesperson, a good dealership? You will enjoy buying a car, you will look forward to it. It' fun getting a new car! Part of the problem is the customer makes it no fun. They are so scared of getting screwed that it is no fun...but if you come into the situation knowing the right facts? you can have fun with it and get a good deal and a new car...and Car-Dogs are funny weird people for the most part, you might actually have a good time...
thedriving
13th November 2007, 02:53
one last thing. As far as trades? If you don't need the car to get you to and from work or whatever...sell it on your own. Sell it and then come bug a salesman, lol.
Why come to the dealer and have them offer you wholesale and feel all hurt because you know you can sell it for more?
Go sell it for more then come see me.
Lets use a miata as an example.
Say you have a 93LE very low miles hard top all services done on time blah blah blah
What's that an $8-$11 car?
What does the dealer see? A 14 year old economy car that they will have to sell for cash because it can't be financed and they can't sell warrantee on the car because of the year and it will have to be between april and august...so ...$5k MAX...more likely $3k...
Makes sense?
LWW
13th November 2007, 06:28
Good luck with that. The last time I went to a dealer, I was looking at a used NB. I didn't want it. Not the right color, not the right trim level. Previous owner was a smoker. Brakes were shot, suspension was mush, clear coat was peeling off, leaking oil around the valve cover...
That said, it was local. I legitimately had no trade, and no intentions of springing one on him. He said $11,900 (99, ~95k). I said they were for sale all over the place for $8500 in better condition at slightly less mileage and with higher trim levels. he finally came back at $10,500 - saying that was what they were into the car for as a trade. I thanked him and went on my way.
The salesman called me 2 weeks later as I was driving my new NB home from CA, offering me the car for $8000. Somehow I think they were still making money at that price.
There's a reason people tend not to be up front with car salesmen... they're entirely full of shyte more often than not. i wish there were a way to buy new cars private party.
-Justin
From being on both sides the story makes perfect sense.
How much does an NB depreciate from spring market to fall market?
I've taken many a car to the auction knowing I would get hosed for $2K-$4K.
If I had a customer who had looked at it recently I would give them a call and let them have it for what I anticipated it would bring at the block.
If the dealer had kept the car they would probably have it till spring and the money could have been turned 2-3 times instead of sitting depreciating.
LWW
sloopercat
13th November 2007, 07:06
Simplest way to get the beat deal? Avoid the showroom floor altogether. Call and ask for the "internet" sales department first. They will sell you a car for invoice, plus some set mark-up, usually $400-500. If you have a trade they will give you "cash" vaue, usually auction price. It is the most pleasant way, honest and only way I will buy a new car.
LWW
13th November 2007, 08:41
Simplest way to get the beat deal? Avoid the showroom floor altogether. Call and ask for the "internet" sales department first. They will sell you a car for invoice, plus some set mark-up, usually $400-500. If you have a trade they will give you "cash" vaue, usually auction price. It is the most pleasant way, honest and only way I will buy a new car.
You may be happy with it, but it will not get you the best deal if you are measuring it in dollars spent.
LWW
tom4416
13th November 2007, 09:36
My single biggest complaint about car salesman is they apparently never learned the words "I'm sorry, I don't know the answer but will find out for you". I thoroughly research any car I'm going to buy and then list my unanswered questions. It's astonishing how little some sales people know about the product they are selling and what they will say to hide that fact. Be honest with me, if you don't know if the truck comes with the wiring pigtail for trailer brakes, tell me, don't tell me it gets mailed from Toyota after the purchase (it's in the glove box on all new trucks/suvs). And don't give me the "don't tell anyone else about this deal, I can't give the same price to anyone else, we lost money, etc.". We all know that's why they have sales and general managers who have to sign the deal before it can be closed.
Unfortunately, car buying/selling is perceived as an adversarial relationship by almost every consumer. Everybody approaches it as going into battle rather than a business transaction that should benefit both sides. The Internet is changing that and the smarter dealerships are changing the way they do business.
ME & MY MIATA
13th November 2007, 11:04
I always got a kick out of people who were looking at $30,000 trucks, and with no money down wanted a $200/ month payment.
^ I think I know that guy.... 1000 month financing is available, check with your local dealer for details.. :rolleyes:
justin.b
13th November 2007, 11:10
This was not a quality dealership. I've shopped them before and have never left feeling happy. They are a huge local multi-brand dealer with multiple locations.
The car was not the car I was interested in - but for the right price that can change. It was a recent trade on their back lot, probably headed to auction (where they certainly would not have fetched anywhere near $8k for it). Brakes and suspension were shot, but I was seeing that as an opportunity to upgrade.
I was tired of shopping and ready to buy. The salesman tried to get a windfall. I was up front with him about everything. I wanted to buy the car as-is, with the problems. His price reflected a car with far more options, lower mileage and in general better condition. I was not willing to pay a $3k premium because the car was local.
I bought an xB from their scion division a couple of years back. They're not allowed to mess with the price, but there was a stack of crap I had to decline, including life insurance and disability insurance. If I'm in dire straits, why would I want to dedicate a portion of my disability check to my car payment, and pay more per month for the privilege?
I have had two good dealer experiences with a competing auto group. I dread going to the other place, but they had an NB.
-Justin
El Fez
13th November 2007, 14:26
I recently bought a new '08 Mazda 3 and was very happy with the transaction. I decided to let the salesmen come to me so after deciding on the exact vehicle I wanted (Mazda 3, Phantom Blue or either of the reds, hatchback, auto, touring model) I went to Edmunds.com and filled out their form and stated I was buying within the month. Well, the 3rd response found the car I wanted (at a dealership I would not have shopped at due to personal dealings with them) and he offered to buy (or trade, whatever) so that I was buying the car from them. My first priority, I told him via e-mail, was a no BS deal. No extra crap, no undercoating, no scotchguard, etc. He said he could do that. We agreed on a price and he made the deal with the other dealer and I showed up at our appointment and there was my car in front. I didn't need a test drive to seal the deal but took one while he did the paperwork shuffle. The only additional "option" I paid for was the window tint put on by the original dealer. It was cheaper than I would have paid to get it done anyway and was done very well. No big deal. I ended up several hundred dollars under invoice and we were both happy. Could I have saved a few more hundred dollars? Sure, but I had not much to put down and supplies with the options and color I wanted were limited. I just wanted a done deal without headaches. Mine was the only Phantom Blue Hatchback in town at the time.
1 month later, I haven't had a lick of trouble with the car and hope to be driving it for a long time.
needamiata
13th November 2007, 20:44
This was not a quality dealership. I've shopped them before and have never left feeling happy. They are a huge local multi-brand dealer with multiple locations.
The car was not the car I was interested in - but for the right price that can change. It was a recent trade on their back lot, probably headed to auction (where they certainly would not have fetched anywhere near $8k for it). Brakes and suspension were shot, but I was seeing that as an opportunity to upgrade.
I was tired of shopping and ready to buy. The salesman tried to get a windfall. I was up front with him about everything. I wanted to buy the car as-is, with the problems. His price reflected a car with far more options, lower mileage and in general better condition. I was not willing to pay a $3k premium because the car was local.
I bought an xB from their scion division a couple of years back. They're not allowed to mess with the price, but there was a stack of crap I had to decline, including life insurance and disability insurance. If I'm in dire straits, why would I want to dedicate a portion of my disability check to my car payment, and pay more per month for the privilege?
I have had two good dealer experiences with a competing auto group. I dread going to the other place, but they had an NB.
-Justin
Dude, you are the epitome of a dreaded customer. First, you say its a poor dealership that you have had bad experiences with, but you keep going back. Explain your sense in this.
Second, now the car in question, that you do not want, you might want if the price is right. You are probably in no danger of ever getting a real fair deal with these philosophies.
I might sugggest you take a job selling cars for a dealer. For someone who is willing to work, it can be a very lucrative career that actually requires no formal education. I have been in some form of the auto industry for just short of 20 years, and have established myself with dealers and customers alike. The other thing you will find, is you will absolutely NOT want to waste time with 'customers' like yourself.
justin.b
15th November 2007, 11:01
Dude, you are the epitome of a dreaded customer. First, you say its a poor dealership that you have had bad experiences with, but you keep going back. Explain your sense in this.
Second, now the car in question, that you do not want, you might want if the price is right. You are probably in no danger of ever getting a real fair deal with these philosophies.
I might sugggest you take a job selling cars for a dealer. For someone who is willing to work, it can be a very lucrative career that actually requires no formal education. I have been in some form of the auto industry for just short of 20 years, and have established myself with dealers and customers alike. The other thing you will find, is you will absolutely NOT want to waste time with 'customers' like yourself.
They were trying to sell me a 99 with 90k miles for $11k. NADA says HIGH retail on the car is $9255.
I was shopping around $8k... which is what these cars were selling for from dealerships across the country. I told him that at the start. If there was no possibility of hitting that price, there was no reason to waste time with me. I really wasn't bs'ing him.
If he takes the honest and upfront information I give him at the start and still decides to waste half a day on me laboring under the delusion that I did not mean what I said then that is not my fault.
I had been researching these cars for a while and was familiar with the asking prices. Evidently, they eventually were familiarized with them as well. I drove through the lot a week later and saw the car with an $8500 price on the windshield. I can only assume that the brake issue had been addressed at that price.
Honestly, if he had started at that point we probably would have had a deal. That doesn't make me a bad customer - it makes him a bad salesman.
I bought a Scion from that dealership complex. I only went there for that because they were close and scions are fixed-price. The prior poor experience with them had been years ago when the Protege 5's first came out. I figured they deserved a second chance.
I am upfront as a customer. I am not offended if the salesman says he cannot come close to the deal I'm looking for and we part company. I understand his Saturday is valuable time and it makes no sense to waste any of it on me if he cannot sell me a car.
In the end, who got screwed? I got a free Miata rental on a sunny Saturday and he wasted a day of foot traffic. I'm not bitter, and feel I got a better deal and a better car shortly after. I just can't get my head around the reason he doubted my stated intentions and budget.
-Justin
needamiata
15th November 2007, 18:15
OK. So you told him there were nicer cars with more equipment and less miles for the same price you would have paid him for it, even though in your first posy you stated:
Good luck with that. The last time I went to a dealer, I was looking at a used NB. I didn't want it. Not the right color, not the right trim level. Previous owner was a smoker. Brakes were shot, suspension was mush, clear coat was peeling off, leaking oil around the valve cover...
So, you are telling me you are honest, yet every time I bring up a point, you change your story. First, you didn't want the car, then you did, and were willing (according to one of your stories) pay top dollar for an inferior car. If, in fact they are all over at less money, why would you pay up for an obviously abused car in need of repair, in a color you didn't like? I understand Scion's are one-price, but if you had a bad experience ONCE, that should be all it takes. If you felt they were bad the first time, why would you go back to look at a poor car that you felt was $3000 overpriced? They didn't contact you, you contacted them for a car that you didn't want and didn't like their service. Can someone help me on this? Am I missing something?
In this post you state one bad experience, but earlier you state:
This was not a quality dealership. I've shopped them before and have never left feeling happy. They are a huge local multi-brand dealer with multiple locations.
And then you state:
I bought an xB from their scion division a couple of years back. They're not allowed to mess with the price, but there was a stack of crap I had to decline, including life insurance and disability insurance. If I'm in dire straits, why would I want to dedicate a portion of my disability check to my car payment, and pay more per month for the privilege?
First of all, thanks to sue happy America, the dealership is making you sign declinations for their protection. It shows that if there is ever a warranty/insurance question, that you were offered the product and declined. Do you even understand what disability insurance is? It has nothing to do with a disability check, it is a separate policy that makes your car payment over and above any other disability coverage you have.
I'm glad you found a better deal. Your points on the other deal basically have zero merit, and my advice would be to never visit the dealer again, you should just buy from private parties, they are much more upfront and honest.
justin.b
15th November 2007, 21:46
OK. So you told him there were nicer cars with more equipment and less miles for the same price you would have paid him for it, even though in your first posy you stated:
Good luck with that. The last time I went to a dealer, I was looking at a used NB. I didn't want it. Not the right color, not the right trim level. Previous owner was a smoker. Brakes were shot, suspension was mush, clear coat was peeling off, leaking oil around the valve cover...
So, you are telling me you are honest, yet every time I bring up a point, you change your story. First, you didn't want the car, then you did, and were willing (according to one of your stories) pay top dollar for an inferior car. If, in fact they are all over at less money, why would you pay up for an obviously abused car in need of repair, in a color you didn't like? I understand Scion's are one-price, but if you had a bad experience ONCE, that should be all it takes. If you felt they were bad the first time, why would you go back to look at a poor car that you felt was $3000 overpriced? They didn't contact you, you contacted them for a car that you didn't want and didn't like their service. Can someone help me on this? Am I missing something?
In this post you state one bad experience, but earlier you state:
This was not a quality dealership. I've shopped them before and have never left feeling happy. They are a huge local multi-brand dealer with multiple locations.
And then you state:
I bought an xB from their scion division a couple of years back. They're not allowed to mess with the price, but there was a stack of crap I had to decline, including life insurance and disability insurance. If I'm in dire straits, why would I want to dedicate a portion of my disability check to my car payment, and pay more per month for the privilege?
First of all, thanks to sue happy America, the dealership is making you sign declinations for their protection. It shows that if there is ever a warranty/insurance question, that you were offered the product and declined. Do you even understand what disability insurance is? It has nothing to do with a disability check, it is a separate policy that makes your car payment over and above any other disability coverage you have.
I'm glad you found a better deal. Your points on the other deal basically have zero merit, and my advice would be to never visit the dealer again, you should just buy from private parties, they are much more upfront and honest.
You're out of your mind. I've consistently said the dealer is not very good and that I haven't had good experiences with them. They had an NB, and I was willing to think my experiences were isolated or related to the salesmen.
I went to look at the car. It wasn't my choice, but I'm shopping 9 year old used cars, it's not like I can name my options and colors. I was willing to be flexible on just about everything. The car I finally bought was not the color I would have chosen... and I actually bought it in spite of that. It a used car, I'm willing to work with what's presented within reason.
There is no correlation between life insurance and a car purchase unless the dealership invents it. Same for disability insurance.
BTW, double check the fine print of your disability policy at work. If you have a supplemental amount of disability benefits (like the policies dealerships are selling), you're required to report it to your primary disability insurer... and then they deduct that amount from their payment to you. So these dealership disability policies do not add any coverage to someone who already has disability insurance - they just allocate a certain amount to the car payment instead of leaving it at your discretion.
Seems you're not the one who understands the insurance.
I don't have the inner workings of car dealerships figured out. I don't care and I don't pretend to know. All I knew is that other dealers were asking $8k for similar cars. I assume the other dealers know the car business.
-Justin
Charcot
15th November 2007, 23:52
Hey, Fez... I would love to see the NC in Phantom Blue! Can't recall, though.. is it a mica or a metallic?
needamiata
16th November 2007, 08:19
You're out of your mind. I've consistently said the dealer is not very good and that I haven't had good experiences with them. They had an NB, and I was willing to think my experiences were isolated or related to the salesmen.
I went to look at the car. It wasn't my choice, but I'm shopping 9 year old used cars, it's not like I can name my options and colors. I was willing to be flexible on just about everything. The car I finally bought was not the color I would have chosen... and I actually bought it in spite of that. It a used car, I'm willing to work with what's presented within reason.
There is no correlation between life insurance and a car purchase unless the dealership invents it. Same for disability insurance.
BTW, double check the fine print of your disability policy at work. If you have a supplemental amount of disability benefits (like the policies dealerships are selling), you're required to report it to your primary disability insurer... and then they deduct that amount from their payment to you. So these dealership disability policies do not add any coverage to someone who already has disability insurance - they just allocate a certain amount to the car payment instead of leaving it at your discretion.
Seems you're not the one who understands the insurance.
I don't have the inner workings of car dealerships figured out. I don't care and I don't pretend to know. All I knew is that other dealers were asking $8k for similar cars. I assume the other dealers know the car business.
-Justin
OK, guys. Any others who have half an inkling about a dealership can chime in. I am going to go talk to my tree.
justin.b
16th November 2007, 14:00
Ok, since you seem to be a car salesman, would you have offered the same price in the situation?
8 year old NB in on a trade. Dealership is probably into the car for nothing. On the back lot, probably headed to auction.
You get someone in interested to buy the car. Anything over auction is essentially found money, no?
Do you quote a price $3000 over nada high retail and $4000 over the price other dealers in the region are asking for similar cars?
I'm not trying to put down dealerships and salesmen in general, but I'd have to believe that this scenario would have been played differently in most cases.
-Justin
chance54
16th November 2007, 14:32
The dealer is allowed to set the price even if he is high balling you. Your perrogative is to make an offer that suits you. You also have the perrogative to walk. If the price is truly unrealistic and there are no "nut jobs" around, the dealer will be stuck with the car. He will become more reasonable as time passes! PATIENCE!
JayL
16th November 2007, 14:33
Ok, since you seem to be a car salesman, would you have offered the same price in the situation?
8 year old NB in on a trade. Dealership is probably into the car for nothing. On the back lot, probably headed to auction.
You get someone in interested to buy the car. Anything over auction is essentially found money, no?
Do you quote a price $3000 over nada high retail and $4000 over the price other dealers in the region are asking for similar cars?
I'm not trying to put down dealerships and salesmen in general, but I'd have to believe that this scenario would have been played differently in most cases.
-Justin
I think the dealership was doing what they needed to do to get you out of there without coming out and saying it. That particular day they wanted more than they knew you were willing to pay. It was probably just as apparent to the dealership as it is to some of us now as you tell your story.
Mr Grinch
16th November 2007, 14:47
Man, I just had an enjoyable purchase experience on my first Mazda, an NC GT.
If anything, the only thing that was a bit strange was the fact that I had to drag the salesman into running the numbers and then had to convince the sales manager that the RHT was still an available accessory! Nice to go on the internet at the dealership, pull up the Mazda website and show where you can add it to your shopping cart!
I was a cash, S-Plan buyer (only recently discovered that the Ford X plan eligibility transfers to the Mazda S-Plan), and we ended up haggling over a RHT.
Best aspect was the Mazda demo drive. We spent 20-30 minutes driving the demo, plus they let me take my car out (which I hadn't driven for the initial demo) by myself before final commitment. Good technique in that the handling sells the MX-5.
Everything else was professional, the car was well detailed and presented, we spent a total of about five hours in enjoyable, friendly conversation, including the haggling over the RHT.
I've always enjoyed buying cars. It has never been easier with access to information. It is basically an informed "act", where the people involved all have a well known role to play. The key is the mindset that you will politely walk out and continue to search for a better deal. It should never be personal.
Grinch
needamiata
16th November 2007, 16:06
Ok, since you seem to be a car salesman, would you have offered the same price in the situation?
8 year old NB in on a trade. Dealership is probably into the car for nothing. On the back lot, probably headed to auction.
You get someone in interested to buy the car. Anything over auction is essentially found money, no?
Do you quote a price $3000 over nada high retail and $4000 over the price other dealers in the region are asking for similar cars?
I'm not trying to put down dealerships and salesmen in general, but I'd have to believe that this scenario would have been played differently in most cases.
-Justin
I don't claim to be a car salesman, I have clearly stated I have been in the auto industry for the better part of 20 years, including: sales, finance, sales mgr, used car mgr, general mgr, and now am involved in an auto auction. I believe I just may know a little more about the business than you do. I have been successful in all areas, although I didn't particularly care for finance, since I am a hands on car guy, and that is closer to a banker than a car guy. Any money over auction value is NOT found money. I am not sure what you do for a living, but most of us work in an industry with something called 'mark-up' or 'profit'. The reason businesses do this type of thing would be a little thing called 'overhead' which comprises of daily operating costs. There are a number of reasons dealers take cars to auction, and sometimes do profit on vehicles there. They sometimes also lose money there, as well as vehicles they have set up for retail sale. I am not going to go into the basic infrastructure of a dealership, but it is really no different than any other business, you must take in more profit than you pay out in expenses to stay in business. I really don't care if he was asking $47,000 for the car in question, YOU are the one that initiated contact. If you would like to see a lot of overpriced vehicles, pick up your local classified section and look at private party sales. Those vehicles are typically considerably overpriced, especially considering they are completely as-is, and not safety checked. In addition to changing your story often (see my posts with your quotes) you have never answered the simple question of why you even went to look at this car, when you had numerous bad experiences, and found plenty of examples of better cars, in better colors, with more equipment, and less miles, for less money. I would not have even quoted you a price. Obviously, you have done your homework, and you should go purchase another vehicle elsewhere. If you think NADA and KBB are gospel, maybe you should try buying a car directly from them. Guides are wonderful, but they are just that, guides. If you think you are going to educate me on my business, you are sadly mistaken. I will be more than happy to compare my check stubs against yours any day of the week. Also, unless you live in a very strange state, disabilty insurance on a loan is over and above any other coverage you may have. This is regulated by the state, and life/dis insurance sold by dealerships, is the exact same coverage and price you would put on a loan through you bank/credit union. I think maybe you should talk to your banker about this, because you obviously feel I have no clue what I am talking about, even though I was licensed and sold it. I don't know what you do for a living, but I am pretty sure if was talking smack about your profession, you would also want to set the record straight. I am a professional inm my field, and have absolutely always worked hard, long and honest, and have excelled because of it. There are alot of inexperienced car people, and enough dealers with poor reputations. There are also alot of kinky insurance agents, real estate agents, bad restaurants, overpriced retail stores, etc. It is everyone's right whether or not they choose to do business with these people, and you have stated after many bad experiences, you keep going back, or wait, in one post it was one bad experience. I still strongly suggest that you stay away from ANY dealership, and strictly purchase from private parties. You are convinced dealers are bad, and the best thing you can do is to stop supporting them.
Giant Bunny Head
16th November 2007, 18:22
I don't claim to be a car salesman, I have clearly stated I have been in the auto industry for the better part of 20 years, including: sales, finance, sales mgr, used car mgr, general mgr, and now am involved in an auto auction...
If only it was broken into paragraphs, I may have read this.
FordFiesta
16th November 2007, 23:01
It seems to be a defense against the claim that car dealers have reputations that are only slightly worse than child molesters and middle-eastern dictators...I wonder why ?
needamiata
16th November 2007, 23:12
It seems to be a defense against the claim that car dealers have reputations that are only slightly worse than child molesters and middle-eastern dictators...I wonder why ?
Once again, if you are unhappy with treatment at a dealer, it is your right NOT to do business with them. I've personally had poor service in just about every industry, they will never get my money twice.
FordFiesta
16th November 2007, 23:56
Yup - you're completely right. There are good guys and sleazeballs in any and all walks of life (except maybe for politics).
LWW
17th November 2007, 09:13
It seems to be a defense against the claim that car dealers have reputations that are only slightly worse than child molesters and middle-eastern dictators...I wonder why ?
Because they have a media outlet which continually gives one side only of the issue maybe?
LWW
LWW
17th November 2007, 09:17
Needamiata, your resume' and mine were very similar.
I posted regularly on here for years but seldom do now for the reasons tou are experiencing.
There are people who come here seeking truth ... and there are people who come here just to argue against the truth, and they base their opinions on some crap they read from an ex felon in a dime tabloid.
It's truly a shame because you probably could add a lot for people who want and need to hear it ... if it weren't for the people who feel they must continue to talk about a topic on which they know virtually nothing.
LWW
LWW
17th November 2007, 09:25
There is no correlation between life insurance and a car purchase unless the dealership invents it. Same for disability insurance.
-Justin
Or, unless you die and leave a debt against your estate and a spouse who can't switch title on the car because it's tied up in probate and they don't have the cash to clear it.
Everyone's situation in life is different. If something is offered to 1 client it must be offered to all. If it isn't the end lender won't even cash the contract because of legal liability.
The same laws apply at banks and credit unions, but reality doesn't allow you to bash someone does it?
LWW
LWW
17th November 2007, 09:30
BTW, double check the fine print of your disability policy at work. If you have a supplemental amount of disability benefits (like the policies dealerships are selling), you're required to report it to your primary disability insurer... and then they deduct that amount from their payment to you. So these dealership disability policies do not add any coverage to someone who already has disability insurance - they just allocate a certain amount to the car payment instead of leaving it at your discretion.
Seems you're not the one who understands the insurance.
-Justin
Justin,
Please post up a copy of your policy hich reads this way or a link to a state insurance law which says this.
I have NEVER seen a policiy written in such a manner.
Mind you, I'm not trying to talk someone into or or out of buying something ... but spreading disinformation on a topic is just flat out wrong.
You don't like car dealers. I've got that. At the same time if you can't make your case with actual facts then you don't have a case at all.
My take on the whole thing is that you were read as a time waster and when you couldn't get what you wanted for what you wanted to pay you went into a whinefest.
The best way to handle a situation like yours IMHO is to vote with your cash and buy elsewhere.
LWW
chance54
17th November 2007, 11:03
I Want To Buy Today!
What Is The Monthly Payment?
I Really Love/want This Car!
That Is Really A Great Deal!
By The Way, I Have A Trade-in!
needamiata
17th November 2007, 15:24
I Want To Buy Today!
What Is The Monthly Payment?
I Really Love/want This Car!
That Is Really A Great Deal!
By The Way, I Have A Trade-in!
Not sure if you are trying to be smart or what. LWW and I are trying offer advice, and it is clear that someone is posting rubbish.
He has contradicted himself numerous times, as well as admitting he keeps going back to a place where he obviously hasn't had good luck. Shame on him, not the dealer.
As far as posting about his insurance issues, he once again has no idea what he is talking about. Ask any insurance agent or banker. We are correct, he is not.
I don't believe anywhere have any of us who have been there done that have told you to go into a place and lay down for the dealer. But, if you go into every dealer with a chip, and act like you know how everything works, cuz someone told you, you are not going to have a pleasant experience.
Unfortunately, the business has changed and the fun level is gone. There are far too many 'clerks' in dealerships, instead of good, knowledgable SALESpeople.
If you prepare yourself ahead of time, maybe setting a spending limit, and narrow your search down to a few models, if you shop within those parameters, you will find someone you like and drive home in a vehicle you feel good about.
Research is great, but use it wisely. I can just as well tell you that banks should lend money at 3%....I can't give it to you for that, but its very for me to tell you how other folks should conduct business when it doesn't affect me.
As far as any aftermarket items, a good extended warranty is a fantastic idea for some people. I personally have bought them in the past on vehicles, if they are written through the manufacturer. With the amount of folks taking loans for 5,6,7 years, they simply cannot afford major repairs 3 years down the road.
As far as having 'more educated consumers', I disagree. There is more information available to people, that they don't properly comprehend. Want an example? Anyone who fell for the 0% instead of a large rebate. Anyone with good credit who took 0%, took it in the shorts. OK, lets put it this way:
If you were looking at a car that was $23000, and you had your choice of a rebate or 0%, it would shake down something like this.
Finance $23000 @ 0%/60 mo = $383/mo
Take the $3000 rebate off, and finance $20000 @6% (which was a typical rate then) = $386/mo
OK, so the payment is $3/mo less. The only way to fully realize those savings, would be to keep the loan out for full term. Problems that arose were when you wanted to trade early, or totalled the vehicle, or paid off early. You can see the payment was virtually the same. This means 1 thing, the factory gave you a $3000 rebate, it was your choice to take it all up front, or allow them to basically pay it to you monthly over a 5 year period. Now you go to trade early, and find out you owe quite a bit more than it is worth. Well, you also finance $3000 more than the car could be bought for, since you took the low rate over the rebate.
If you take something back to a store without a receipt, they will generally credit you the lowest sale price rather than what you actually paid for it. Kinda the same her, folks. Just because you paid $23000, other folks paid $20000, and you car isn't worth any more. Like what you see happening with '06's, because of the huge end of year close outs.
I hope this info helps out some. If it makes no sense, I am sorry. I don't represent a dealer anymore. I have a lot of friends that I deal with directly on a daily basis that give their all to try to make a living in this business, and I won't stand for uninformed folks bashing this career.
justin.b
17th November 2007, 15:34
Thank you for the education. I had absolutely no idea that dealerships had overhead.
I also knew I was free to buy elsewhere - which is what I did.
I know the NADA is a guide. I wasn't relying on NADA. I didn't even bother to look up the values until this thread. I was basing my price on what other dealerships were asking for similar vehicles. IMHO, a valid comparison - assuming these other dealerships also have to cover that mystical 'overhead' stuff.
Yes, I initiated the contact. The car was found on the back lot as a recent trade. I was willing to offer $8k for it (which was still a slightly inflated price, but I was tired of shopping and quite ready to buy at that point).
If the salesguy could not sell it to me for that price - just let me go. Like I said, no offense. You're selling a product, you need to make a certain amount on it. I'm looking to buy, but only within my budget for a particular model.
I was upfront about this, and this particular salesman (not every salesman, nor the entire industry) basically tried to rip me off. Period. Defend it all you want.
I ended up spending more on a newer model with fewer miles in much better condition. They ended up selling the car (I assume) at a later date for around what I was willing to pay for it (since a week later the asking price was ~$8500 on the windshield).
I guess going to the dealership in the first place was my mistake? I'm really just confused at this point about what exactly is fueling the attack.
-Justin
needamiata
17th November 2007, 16:05
You started attacking us. We were defending and pointing out the obvious. You have stated plenty of times, that you found nicer vehicles for less money. Why did you not purchase one of those?
Getting co*cky now about overhead. You stated any amount over wholesale is 'found money'. Wrong.
Because the saleman didn't take your offer, he wasn't trying to 'rip you off'. Buying anything is a two way street. The seller wants X amount, the consumer wants to pay X amount. Nobody is right or wrong and entitled to whatever opinion they feel is right. If you can't come to terms, move on. Done. If that dealer is that far out of reality on pricing, they will cease selling, which will put them out of business.
I am not defending your salesman or that particular dealership. You were probably right to buy elsewhere. Whats comes in question, which I have asked in just about every post, is why did you keep going back to a dealer that you hate? If you never had a decent experience there, what did you expect? The good luck fairy to mysteriously appear?
PAying more for a newer car with less miles in better condition seems pretty logical to me. However, you were the one that stated you were willing to pay more for the car than others were selling them for, even though you didn't like the color, equipment, miles, or mechanical condition. That yo have also not addressed, other than to say you were tired of shopping, but you also state you found alot of other examples better, with less miles for less money.
Your version of disability insurance isn't even remotely correct. I will attack information that is posted that is easily proved to be 100% incorrect.
justin.b
17th November 2007, 16:55
You are right on the disability thing. I checked my policy and it does reduce the benefit by the amount of other income, but defines other income as Social Security, Railroad Retirement act or any other state benefit. It doesn't mention private policies. It had been a while since I had seen the information.
I went there because it was close to my home. The others were 20-50 miles away. I would have felt silly buying a car from somewhere distant if this car turned out to be a great deal.
I live in a salted road region. My plan was to buy a car from a warm weather region and drive it back. I was looking to egt my feet wet with a used Miata, and set my budget for a toy car to replace one I was selling. My price range put me at ~$10k, making my year range from 99-02. At that age, I would rather buy from a salt-free area. I don't see that as a contradiction - I was just expanding my marketplace.
Obviously, there are risks and expenses involved in buying from a distance and was willing to give a local car a look - even though it was not my 'ideal' car. I realize that I am shopping used and have to be flexible.
I didn't mean to get in a wee-wee contest over dealership knowledge. I have never worked in the industry and did not go in with a chip on my shoulder. I'm not the guy who walks into a dealership and says "I've got cash!" expecting the seas to part for him.
I was considering the 'found money' to be the value over what they would have sold the car at auction. Obviously it costs them more to process a sale to me (some of which I would have paid directly in the mandatory non-negotiable documentation fees that this particular place charges), but I would assume they could have still made more selling it to me than at auction.
Now that that is done...
With your experience in the business, I am genuinely curious if there was a strategy behind the price. Was he likely trying to encourage me towards a new one instead?
-Justin
chance54
17th November 2007, 22:50
Not sure if you are trying to be smart or what.
OR WHAT?
needamiata
17th November 2007, 23:43
Perfect. This thread needed a few more mindless posts
needamiata
17th November 2007, 23:47
You are right on the disability thing. I checked my policy and it does reduce the benefit by the amount of other income, but defines other income as Social Security, Railroad Retirement act or any other state benefit. It doesn't mention private policies. It had been a while since I had seen the information.
I went there because it was close to my home. The others were 20-50 miles away. I would have felt silly buying a car from somewhere distant if this car turned out to be a great deal.
I live in a salted road region. My plan was to buy a car from a warm weather region and drive it back. I was looking to egt my feet wet with a used Miata, and set my budget for a toy car to replace one I was selling. My price range put me at ~$10k, making my year range from 99-02. At that age, I would rather buy from a salt-free area. I don't see that as a contradiction - I was just expanding my marketplace.
Obviously, there are risks and expenses involved in buying from a distance and was willing to give a local car a look - even though it was not my 'ideal' car. I realize that I am shopping used and have to be flexible.
I didn't mean to get in a wee-wee contest over dealership knowledge. I have never worked in the industry and did not go in with a chip on my shoulder. I'm not the guy who walks into a dealership and says "I've got cash!" expecting the seas to part for him.
I was considering the 'found money' to be the value over what they would have sold the car at auction. Obviously it costs them more to process a sale to me (some of which I would have paid directly in the mandatory non-negotiable documentation fees that this particular place charges), but I would assume they could have still made more selling it to me than at auction.
Now that that is done...
With your experience in the business, I am genuinely curious if there was a strategy behind the price. Was he likely trying to encourage me towards a new one instead?
-Justin
I doubt it. It would take a stupid salesman to try to switch someone who came in wanting to spend $8k to a car almost $20k more!
Hard to say what they were doing. We can't even talk about a car here if it isn't safety inspected with a price disclosure affixed in WI. Maybe they were figuring it reconditioned, or it is possible that someone looked it up wrong, or the previous customer was over-allowed on trade, and they didn't have the exact acv handy. No clue
LWW
18th November 2007, 11:19
Not sure if you are trying to be smart or what.
OR WHAT?
It's OK.
I'm sure about you.
LWW
LWW
18th November 2007, 11:31
Hard to say what they were doing. We can't even talk about a car here if it isn't safety inspected with a price disclosure affixed in WI. Maybe they were figuring it reconditioned, or it is possible that someone looked it up wrong, or the previous customer was over-allowed on trade, and they didn't have the exact acv handy. No clue
I will confess that at least once ... maybe twice ... I would have someone come in who had been in weekly for as long as I could remember and always had an attitude and never bought anything.
I'm not saying this is what happened here since I wasn't there, but in my instances the easiest way to make sure you didn't waste time with this type of pseudocustomer was to blow them out of the water from the start.
If I had seen someone come in enough times acting poorly enough the conversation would usally go something like this:
JOE PSEUDO: How much for the 1977 Maverick four door?
EL DUBB: $17,995.00.
JOE PSEUDO: Isn't that a bit high?
EL DUBB: Not for a low miler like this baby, it's only rolled over 11 times.
JOE PSEUDO: Still seems high?
EL DUBB: These are very rare sir.
JOE PSEUDO: Isn't that a lot of miles?
EL DUBB: Oh no, these are so reliable that they quit even making parts for it about 10 years ago. You can't even buy them anymore.
JOE PSEUDO: Well let me think it over.
EL DUBB: See you next Saturday while you wait for your wife to get out of the beauty shop.
LWW
justin.b
18th November 2007, 12:40
I've got a question about time wasters.
I have gone to dealerships with no intentions of buying that day. I go to the dealership to look at a vehicle I may be interested in buying as my next car.
I only look at cars I am genuinely interested in buying and am always up front that I am not buying today, just looking at a car I am considering as a replacement for a current vehicle. I don't look at cars that I am not genuinely considering or are outside of the budget I have set.
With the xB, I visited the dealer when they first came out. Test drove it, took the card of the salesman I had dealt with (a knowledgeable car guy - BMW enthusiast) and then went on my way. Got sidetracked with moving and a new job... but went back to the same guy about 4 months later and bought the car. Since I had already seen the car and had test driven it, the actual buying visit was very brief.
Would I have been considered a pseudo customer on my first visit?
-Justin
ZQ8Dude
18th November 2007, 13:31
let me take it one by one
1. don't say you are ready to buy it's a sign of weakness.
WRONG.
It will make the salesman take you seriously. You will be able to drive as many cars as you need to, the saleperson will be patient with you, answer as many questions as you can come up with and in the end they will be extremely solicitious to you because they know it will be worth it because they know you are buying a car and not wasting their time.
2."I can afford this much per month."
ok. you definitly do not want to tell me what payment you want.
I will find a car that I can sell you that will earn me a 3 or 4 pounder and still get you the payment you want.
You should know that with average credit you will expect to pay $20 per month per $1,000
so...generally speaking a $20k car costs $400 per month
3. Don't say I have a trade-in.
Of course you have a trade-in. Don't lie about it. Not telling the salesperson you have a trade-in only unnecesarrily complicates things.
Lets just say that there is only so much money to move either way.
You can get a discount on the car you are buying or more from your trade but either way it's the same amount of money total. So lying about if you have a trade or not is useless. It gives me the right to lie to you. You started it. ;)
4.Car dealers make a significant chunk of added profit when they sell you financing.
First. Significant? No. Maybe A point or two. And not always. I promise you, if your interest rate is 5% the dealership is not buying a contract at 1 percent and then selling it to you for 4 points higher. They are getting a contract for 5% and signing you up.
Second, the salesman does not care how you are paying. They care about the sale. But if they can tell you are lying to them? Then they will treat you like a liar. And salesmen can tell. They get lied to as much as cops do and they can spot a lie easily.
Be honest for the most part.
5."I'm not sure which model do you think I need?"
First, I have never been asked this. That's just stupid. :bang:
Second, if you are not totally sure what product you want why not ask an expert? Tell them what you want and then have them recommend a car and tell you why it's right for you.
As an example, I sell Subies. People come in all the time and know they want a Subaru just not which one. I ask they how they intend to use the car, whats important to them in a car, etc. and then I make a recomendation. I make the same amount of money either way.
6."Oh, I've wanted one of these all my life."
Great. We like seeing someone get excited about their new car. We can't make you buy the car so if the deal isn't good it doesn't matter if it's your "dream car " or not.
Salespeople are ultimatley PEOPLE. We want to sell you your dream car. Share the fun with us. We will actually go out of our way to help you get your dream car. If I think you couldn't care less about the car why would I make a big production of trying to help you get it?
7."I'll take whatever the popular options are."
:bang: Again, stupid. I have never had someone say this. Not even worth discussing. Just get the features that are important to you.
8."What's the lowest price you can give me?"
This is a stupid question. Why would we sell you the car at the lowest possible price just because you ask? Seriously. We call this a "rock bottom buyer" and they are never respected.
Do your research, find out what invoice is and offer to buy the car at $100 over invoice, minus any rebates. 99% of the time your offer will be accepted. See how easy that was?
I bought a 2008 Camry for my ex the week they came out, when the car had already been called car of the year and all that buisness, for $100 over. Just have an idea what the car is really worth and then offer that. If you just ask for their best price it will never be the best price.
9."Sure, I'll look at the numbers with you."
"Perhaps quite early in your visit, the salesperson will most likely make an offer to "just go look at the numbers." Dealers do this when they sense you're undecided, but they want to be in the position of control. Getting you in the office makes it harder for you to back out. Wait until you can call the shots of what you want at what price."
again, nonsense. Salespeople do this when they sense you might want to buy the car. How does me telling you how much I can sell you the car for suddenly put me in a position of control if you aren't even sure if you want the car?
If you are interested in the car and want to know how much it will cost you, how else will you know unless you look at the numbers? If you don't like the car don't go inside. Say "I don't like this car what else do you have?"
It is no harder to walk out if you have only driven the car than if you have worked up a payment.
10."I think you can do a lot better than that."
"Never scold or accuse the salespeople. Be polite. Compliment them, and show respect. You'll never get the best price if you talk down to them. At least for the moment, you want them to be your friends. Let the scene play out, but leave when the deal's not good enough by quietly suggesting that the competition across town might be more willing to work with you."
This is good advice for the most part. I don't know a single sucessful salesperson who is stupid, so treating them as if they are stupid won't work. If you are friendly and polite and respectful I will treat you in kind. If you are rude or condescending I will do my best to take as much money out of your pocket as possible...and you know what? I have a college degree, I have been in sales for more than a decade and I am good at this.
I sell more than 150 cars in a year, how many do you buy in a year? So if you piss me off? What are the odds that I will figure out a way to make some money off you?
But,
If you make a friend of me, how hard do you think I will work to get you a good deal?
Oh and mentioning the competitoin across town?
Come on. I know them better than you do. Some of them are probably my friends. I know what they are going tosay or do better than you do, so don't insult me by bringing them into this. If you have an offer on paper from them, let me see it, I'll beat it.
I hope some of this helps.
Oh, and it's too late for spell check, I'm tired. LOL
number 9 has been pulled on me. What your saying makes sense, but they do try it. Back when i was looking at mustangs i went through a dealer where the salesmen tried to keep me and bargain a deal well before i was ready to buy.
LWW
18th November 2007, 13:38
Would I have been considered a pseudo customer on my first visit?
-Justin
Not by me, no.
OTOH if you stopped in to look at a used Z06 last Sat and a used H2 the Sat before that and a used 740i the Sat before that and a used Prius the Sat before that and a vintage Quattroporte the Sat before that then I assume you are just seeking cheap entertainment.
Every dealer row in every city has it's regulars, and we all know who they are.
LWW
chance54
18th November 2007, 14:00
I Want To Buy Today!
What Is The Monthly Payment?
I Really Love/want This Car!
That Is Really A Great Deal!
By The Way, I Have A Trade-in!
Not sure if you are trying to be smart or what.
Actually, Einstein I was making a serious statement about some basic statements that amateurs sometimes make, before you became absorbed in your own self-importance!
needamiata
18th November 2007, 17:42
I Want To Buy Today!
What Is The Monthly Payment?
I Really Love/want This Car!
That Is Really A Great Deal!
By The Way, I Have A Trade-in!
Not sure if you are trying to be smart or what.
Actually, Einstein I was making a serious statement about some basic statements that amateurs sometimes make, before you became absorbed in your own self-importance!
Yup you did a beautiful job explaining yourself. Not sure where explaining things the correct way is getting absorbed in my own self importance.
As for calling me Einstein, I would more than guess that I do have a much higher IQ than yourself, so THANK YOU!!!
needamiata
18th November 2007, 17:50
I've got a question about time wasters.
I have gone to dealerships with no intentions of buying that day. I go to the dealership to look at a vehicle I may be interested in buying as my next car.
I only look at cars I am genuinely interested in buying and am always up front that I am not buying today, just looking at a car I am considering as a replacement for a current vehicle. I don't look at cars that I am not genuinely considering or are outside of the budget I have set.
With the xB, I visited the dealer when they first came out. Test drove it, took the card of the salesman I had dealt with (a knowledgeable car guy - BMW enthusiast) and then went on my way. Got sidetracked with moving and a new job... but went back to the same guy about 4 months later and bought the car. Since I had already seen the car and had test driven it, the actual buying visit was very brief.
Would I have been considered a pseudo customer on my first visit?
-Justin
90% + of customers state they are 'just looking', of those 90%, I'd say roughly 30% or so buy that day. Most salespeople are taught to ignore that statement, since it is proven wrong quite often.
Salepeople WANT you to buy that day, because if you leave, the chances of you coming back are small, and no sale, no pay.
Other than being upset that the dealer made you sign declination forms on your Scion, it doesn't sound like that purchase was very painful to you.
justin.b
18th November 2007, 18:11
Nah, it really wasn't. The salesguy was great until the paperwork when he was really pushing hard for the insurance and even tried to sell me true coat - or whatever the real-life equivalent of that was. I think my later experience with their Mazda shop was coloring my Scion memories.
The salesguy would even contact me when they were putting on their spring car show asking me to bring down my project car... which was never quite ready that early in the spring.
I realize that a lot of sales are made to people who are 'just looking,' but I really do 'just look.' I gather information, then take a look / test drive the two or three cars I'm considering then go back and buy.
I usually shop in the fall and then buy in the spring. That way if I end up putting a car in a snowbank over the winter, I'm ready to buy.
I guess guys on the floor aren't used to getting upfront responses from their customers, but it still does make it frustrating to me when I am being upfront.
-Justin
needamiata
18th November 2007, 18:20
Once we can get past all the BS, everything goes smoother. Look at the difference in your posts since the beginning. LWW and I are not here to try to sell anybody anything.
The majority of customers lie about something on a first visit, and quite frankly, they are not good at it. The best salepeople (auto industry or other) can read body language. Believe me, when a fresh customer comes in trying a new line they read in C/R, we know it. The difference is, we try to make you feel comfortable, and find out why you really did come in. Remember, you came to see us, you should at least be fairly polite!
You seemed to like your salesman. If he is still in the business, you will probably find it much easier to call him regarding your next vehicle. Call him 6 months in advance, if he knows you are for real, he'll probably call when he sees a promotion that will benefit you.
Oh by the way, for everyone's info, the guy that walks in and say "SO, who wants to sell a car today?" NEVER buys, and will end up with a rookie salesman, cuz he is a stroke!
justin.b
18th November 2007, 18:28
The problem is at this multi-line dealer is that the 'training' shop is the Mazda store. You're almost always dealing with a rookie there.
Headbutting in the beginning is just the fault of the expressionless text online. If you could have read my body language, I'm sure it would have gone smoother. ;)
-Justin
LWW
18th November 2007, 20:36
I Want To Buy Today!
What Is The Monthly Payment?
I Really Love/want This Car!
That Is Really A Great Deal!
By The Way, I Have A Trade-in!
Not sure if you are trying to be smart or what.
Actually, Einstein I was making a serious statement about some basic statements that amateurs sometimes make, before you became absorbed in your own self-importance!
I wanted to come back to these and expose the reality of each statement:
I Want To Buy Today! - In 25 years I never seen someone say "I Want To Buy Today!" actually buy a car that day.
What Is The Monthly Payment? - An actual sign that someone has some interest in doing something, along with being an actual sign that the individual is worfully unprepared to actually do it. This mindset usually results in someone thinking that $200/mth is OK on an Escalade 1,000 times for every 1 time it results in someone thing $400/mth is OK on a Cobalt.
I Really Love/want This Car! - This will produce 10 people who have tried to buy the car they love already, and been turned down, for every 1 it produces which actually want to buy it and haven't tried elsewhere. It will produce another 10 who just want a ride and think that feigned overinterest will fool people. It doesn't.
That Is Really A Great Deal! - See above :What Is The Monthly Payment?
By The Way, I Have A Trade-in! - An actual sign of honesty. BTW, we know that 2/3's of tou do. The other 1/3 is made up of people who:
-Have a car totalled and are fighting with insurance.
-Had a car stolen.
-Had a car repossessed.
-Have a car they owe more than retail on.
-People who lie.
-The very small percent of people who actually don't have another vehicle to dispose of.
so, as has been told here ad infinitum, the quickest way to brain damage is to start off a transaction dishonestly.
LWW
LWW
18th November 2007, 20:40
The problem is at this multi-line dealer is that the 'training' shop is the Mazda store. You're almost always dealing with a rookie there.
-Justin
That is a problem that will always exist when you are shopping an entry level line, especially one that is relatively low volume.
LWW
chance54
18th November 2007, 22:47
LWW, Thanks for expanding on my points from your perspective. Happy Motoring!
tbearmiata
18th November 2007, 23:57
Entertaining reading. I would like to stress the point about finding a dealer/salesperson that you build a relationship. When living in WV, had a salesperson who was low key, knew the car and didn't try the BS on you. He would give me rides back to work when dropping car for service. He ended up selling three cars to my wife and I in 2.5 years. One sale took less than 10 minutes for negotiation, the entire process less than 30 minutes. Another sale was made when he let my wife take the car for the weekend. Maybe I paid a couple of hundred more but the experience was worth it.
Unfortunately, I had another such person here at Jim Ellis in Atlanta but he went into the finance department and out of sales. Haven't found anyone since.
Mosca
19th November 2007, 18:34
Yay!
Tom
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